Plus what meaningful "quiet times" look like practically for Mark and Jordan
In this episode, authors Mark Batterson (Win the Day and Do it for a Day) and Jordan Raynor (Redeeming Your Time) discuss:
Want to go deeper on these topics? Pick-up a copy of Mark's books (Win the Day and Do it for a Day) and Jordan's (Redeeming Your Time).
[00:00:11] JR: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Redeem the Day Podcast, a seven-episode series aimed at helping you be more purposeful, present, and productive. I'm Jordan Raynor, author of Redeeming Your Time, and I'm joined by Mark Batterson, author of Do It for a Day and Win the Day. Mark, how are you today?
[00:00:32] MB: I'm doing great. Fun to be able to talk about what we have in store, Jordan.
[00:00:38] JR: I know. I’m excited. Hey, is this your first podcast that you're hosting?
[00:00:43] MB: It might be. This may be the inaugural.
[00:00:46] JR: Breaking news.
[00:00:47] MB: Inaugural podcast, yes.
[00:00:50] JR: Butnot the last. I love it. Hey, so listen. If you're listening, you're like, “Who in the world is Mark?” You don't have that question. Everyone knows Mark. But more likely, who in the world is this Jordan Raynor kid? You can learn more about us in the trailer of this podcast. Listen, in these seven episodes, guys, we’re going to get super practical, giving you tools that you need to be more purposeful, present, and productive at work and at home. But in this episode, we want to start at 50,000 feet, breaking down the theology that really needs to be the foundation of our lives and our efforts to manage our time well because theology always, always, always shapes our practice.
So in this episode of Redeem the Day, we're going to talk through three things. Number one, how the gospel of Jesus Christ is simultaneously our source of rest and ambition. Second, we're going to talk through how that truth leads us to get serious about redeeming our time and winning the day. Then finally, we're going to spend a few minutes talking about why time in God's word is the keystone habit of time management and what this habit actually looks like practically for both Mark and myself. Wwe're going to take you into our daily quiet times.
So I want to start here, Mark, with one of my favorite passages of the Scripture, Ephesians 2:8-9. For it is by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, so that no one can boast. So, Mark, I got to imagine that a lot of our listeners are ambitious for the work they're doing in the world. But how did these verses enable us to rest?
[00:02:29] MB: Well, as a type three on the Enneagram, an achiever, a performer –
[00:02:34] JR: Right there with you.
[00:02:35] MB: It’s even harder because you tend to measure yourself based on your latest performance, whatever that is, whatever you do. So it's hard. But I think, well, we might as well – Let’s just get right to the heart of it. I've had a couple of counselors over the last couple of years, Jordan. I think everybody needs counseling. Some of it is family of origin issues. Others have been just stressed- related last couple of years, trying to manage stress a little bit better. One of those counselors, we had a wonderful conversation about not working for rest. In other words, just grind it out and live for the weekend but working from rest, from a place of resting in God's grace, trusting God's grace.
There is a rest available to us. The writer of Hebrews said that it is absolutely unique. That actually defies circumstances. It's that peace that passes understanding. So I've had to learn to not find as much of my identity in my productivity but really find that identity in who I am in Christ, and that's something you never arrived. You just have to continue to remind yourself that you are who God says you are, and that's a pretty good starting point.
[00:04:03] JR: I've got three young daughters; seven, five, and two years old. Every single, I'm trying to get them to understand this at a very early age. So every night when I put them in bed, last thing I tell them, I say, “Hey, kids. You know Daddy loves you, no matter how many bad things you do,” and they say yes. I think we can get on board with that, but the harder part is what I say next. I say, “Hey, you know I also love you, no matter how many good things you do.” They say yes, and I say, “Who else loves you like that,” and they say Jesus, right?
Or Kate, my little five-year-old theological Stickler and on the path of being a Catholic, I guess, as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. But, yeah, listen. Like that's what you're talking about, right? It is understanding that truth and enabling you to rest. How do you personally, Mark, know when you're working from rest, as opposed to for rest?
[00:04:59] MB: Well, you have to figure out how your body manifest stress and pay attention to it. By the way, I really – Because I had asthma for 40 years until God healed me, which is maybe another story for another episode, I don't take breathing for granted. So I do a lot of deep breathing, and it has this physiological effect of just relaxing my body. But I tend to feel it in my neck and my shoulders. I tend to notice it when I'm a little bit more irritable because my baseline is pretty low key and pretty upbeat and pretty energetic. But if I start to notice a little irritability or loss of energy, man, I might not be getting as much rest as I could.
Hey, I know we're mixing in kind of theological and practical, and I do think spirituality is practicality. Here's the fun one, Jordan. One of the best gifts my wife ever got me was an infrared ring, and it's one of those rings that gives me a sleep score and a readiness score every morning. It’s helped me become a much better steward of rest, of sleeping. It measures my activity. It measures my sleep patterns. Whatever you measure is what you're going to pay attention to. So it's interesting because what you're describing is something that it's hard to measure some of those qualitative kind of things. But I think know yourself, and that's certainly a critical thing.
[00:06:50] JR: Well, there's these physical symptoms of what's going on spiritually, right? These things are connected. We are whole people. This is how God designed us. So I do think there are physical signs of whether or not we understand and are grasping the gospel at this deep level. What Paul says in Ephesians 2 that, again, it is by grace we've been saved, not by works, regardless of our performance. But Paul goes on to say in the next verse, Ephesians, 2:10, that, sure, we're not saved by our works, but we are saved for good works, right? We’re God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good work.
Mark, I want you to talk about this for a minute because I think a lot of people hear this verse, hear Jesus use this word good works, and assume that that means exclusively evangelism or giving money to the poor. Is that what Paul meant here? Or is the meaning here broader?
[00:07:43] MB: Well, I think it's a broader meaning. I love that you bring this passage into the mix because it would be my life verse. It would be the verse that – Occasionally, Jordan, have you ever had anybody ask you to maybe sign a book, which I'm always happy to personalize it? I feel like the value might go down. But I'm always happy to scribble a name. Occasionally, someone will say, “Hey, put your favorite verse in there.” For me, it's always Ephesians 2:10. So I'll answer the question, but do you have a life verse? Is there – If I said, “Hey, what verse would you write down?” I'm just curious.
[00:08:21] JR: So you and I have known each other for years, not super well. So this is super fun because I've learned two things that I didn't know before that we share. Number one, we’re both Enneagram threes. Number two, Ephesians 2:10 is my life verse. So why –
[00:08:36] MB: Is it that funny?
[00:08:37] JR: Yeah. Why is this so significant to you?
[00:08:39] MB: Well, to me, I think that we live at the intersection of two theologies. I would describe it this way. The faithfulness of God is pursuing us from the past, and the way that I like to say that is so far so God, but let's take good out of the equation. Then the sovereignty of God is setting us up for the future. I think that means the best is yet to come, and we live where these two realities or two theologies collide. I think they collide right here in Ephesians 2:10. It’s good works prepared for us in advance.
In other words, this isn't you manufacturing a miracle. This is you simply being sensitive to what God is doing in you and around you, paying attention to those good works that He's already set up. So all we have to do is obey those promptings of the Holy Spirit. I know that makes it sound easier than what it really is in reality, but that's sort of my take. I do believe whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do it all to the glory of God. So it's not a thin slice. It's all of life. God wants to redeem everything. Hey, maybe that's your next book, redeeming your time and redeeming every –
[00:10:04] JR: Every square inch of creation.
[00:10:06] MB: Yes, because, you know.
[00:10:07] JR: Terrible book title, yeah.
[00:10:08] MB: Yeah. I mean, it's all – I forget. How can I forget his name? I think the former Danish –
[00:10:16] JR: Yeah, Kuyper.
[00:10:17] MB: Kuyper, yeah. Theologian Abraham Kuyper said that every square inch of creation, God says mine, and it belongs to me.
[00:10:25] JR: This is why I love Ephesians 2:10. My mission in life and my work is to help Christians connect the gospel to their work, to why they do it, what they do, how they do it. This verse is key to understanding this, right? We hear good works, and we think it means evangelism and giving money to the poor. Yes, it does. But according to every Bible concordance I've ever read, I pulled up one in preparation for today's episode, it says, “Work, task, and employment,” right?
So part of the purpose of your salvation, you're not saved just to sit back and wait around for eternity. We are saved to do good works, to go to work tomorrow, roll up our sleeves, and do our work with excellence and genuine love of others and in accordance with God's commands and in so doing, bring the Father great glory. If you believe that, if you follow Paul's thinking here, skip ahead a couple of chapters to Ephesians 5, and he says, “Okay, how do we do good works for others?” He says in Ephesians 5:15-16, “See then that you walk carefully, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time because the days are evil.” Now, we're getting somewhere with the name of this podcast, the Redeem the Day Podcast. Mark, what is Paul talking about here when he says redeem the time?
[00:11:48] MB: I love it. Well, I think it's not just managing the minutes. I think it's also managing the moments, and maybe we'll have a little bit of fun with some of those Greek words for time or opportunity. But I think it's the idea that time is measured in minutes. Life is measured in moments. We've got to notice those moments and make the most of them. It really doesn't matter in a sense what we do. I immediately think about Dr. King and that famous idea or quote, “If a man is called to be a street sweeper, he should sweep streets, even as Michelangelo painted or Beethoven composed music or Shakespeare wrote poetry.” I love that idea because that is redeeming whatever you do.
Some of the people that I have learned to appreciate the most, and I want to be careful here because here we find ourselves with the great relocation and the great resignation kind of life is it's 52-card pickup for so many people in terms of what they do. There are many industries that are having a hard time, including food service, finding people to take a job. So I want to be careful. I don't really see it as a hierarchy, but let's be honest, Jordan. There are some jobs that are harder, maybe a little bit more taxing physically or might be considered a little bit more of that, a menial task that maybe isn't as a plotted by our culture.
I always feel like the people that I respect the most are doing those jobs that if I'm being honest I would have a hard time doing it. But they do it with this A-plus attitude. Those are people that I have learned to applaud. Since we're getting pretty personal, one of my favorite things to do is to leave a tip more than the bill, vocation. Listen, if someone serves well, I want to make sure that I'm just saying a heartfelt thank you for doing what you do in a way that bless me or made my day.
[00:14:10] JR: It’s the ministry of excellence, right? We look at the word ministry. We have so church-ified this word, and look at the Scripture. Just made service, right? Your work, listener, whatever you're doing, as a waitress, as a janitor, as an entrepreneur, a marketer, a stay-at-home parent is ministry. So we should care about doing it with excellence. So we should care about redeeming the time because the days are evil, and we're running out of time to do the work the Father has given us to do.
I was reading Tim Keller commenting on Ephesians 5:15-16 where this redeem the day, redeem the time concept comes from. He says, “Christians are solemnly obliged not to waste time. Time stewardship is a biblical command.” I think a lot of times we look at this topic of time management productivity like, “Oh, this is like secular,” right? No, it's a response to the gospel, right? It is a response, this idea that we believe we've been created in Christ Jesus for good works.
All right, so Mark, the Gospel’s our source of rest and ambition, right? It leads us to be intentional about how we steward our time. You said in your book, Win the Day, you said, “Winning the day starts with your daily Bible reading plan for you personally.” In my experience, this is the first thing a lot of busy people cut from their routines. Why is time in the word the starting point for you?
[00:15:36] MB: Well, I'll share two things. It was about 10 years ago that I was at a conference. J. I. Packer happened to be the devotional speaker in the mornings, this eminent theologian probably in his 80s at the time, and he said something I'll never forget. He said, “Every Christian worth their salt reads the Bible from cover to cover every year.” I found it convicting because I wasn't doing that as a pastor of a church. Listen, no one bats 1,000, and this is not intended to send anybody on a guilt trip because all of us fall short. But I think probably 9 out of the last 10 years, I have completed a Bible reading plan where I read the bible cover to cover, and I do it in different translations because I feel like it makes my synapses fire in slightly different ways.
[00:16:30] JR: For sure.
[00:16:31] MB: I would say that my most prized possession is a 1934 Thompson Chain-Reference Bible that belonged to my grandfather, Elmer Johnson, and he passed it on to me. I love looking at the verses he underlined or the notes he wrote in the margins. So, Jordan, at the end of the day, I have three children. You have three daughters. Like ultimately, with my kids, and then maybe someday grandkids, I would love to have enough bibles to be able to gift one to each one of my kids and grandkids someday so that they have that same kind of heirloom.
All I know is this. It's what keeps me centered, especially over the last couple of years. It has been a lifeline, and what it does is get me on a wavelength at the beginning of the day. That has made all the difference with just the stress and chaos and a pandemic and all the other challenges that we face. It’s that daily Bible reading plan that has been the thing that has kept me centered.
[00:17:37] JR: I argue in my book, Redeeming Your Time, that daily time in the word for me. I've just found this to be the keystone habit that makes everything else easier and more effective, right. We're going to talk about some of these things in later episodes, right? But for me, time in the word helps me dissent from the kingdom of noise every day, which we're going to talk about in episode two. It helps me set more God-sized and God-honoring goals, which we're going to talk about in episode three, because it reminds me of how big our God is and what He's able to do through us. So this is a non-negotiable for me. I am curious, like real practically, what does your time in the world look like every day, Mark? What's your routine here?
[00:18:20] MB: Well, with the complete Bible in a year, it usually is two chapters from the Old Testament, one chapter from the New Testament, often a Psalm or a Proverb mixed in. I never read without a pen, Jordan. I always underline, even in my Bibles, and I’ll often make notes or I might journal or capture a thought. Occasionally, because I think the Bible wasn't just meant to be read, it was meant to be prayed through and meditated on, occasionally something will stop me in my tracks. I'll spend some time praying into it and meditating on it.
Then for what it's worth, my office is above the coffee house that we own and operate on Capitol Hill. So I have it, stack it, and I always do my Bible reading with a small latte, two shots, in the morning because the Bible reads better with caffeine.
[00:19:15] JR: I think this is proven. I'm pretty sure that somewhere in I Peter, right? Yeah.
[00:19:18] MB: Yes, absolutely.
[00:19:20] JR: By the way, so I spent a little bit of time living in DC. I'm a huge fan of the West Wing. Are you a fan of the West Wing by chance?
[00:19:27] MB: Anything that’s shot in DC, I loved it, at least sample because it's fun to get some of that local flavor.
[00:19:34] JR: Well, here's why I bring it up. There's this really beautiful scene where President Bartlet is handing down this old family heirloom. I think it was a knife, a carving knife, to his assistant, Charlie Young. When you're talking about your Bibles, I think it's a really beautiful picture of that. I love that idea of overtime being able to hand down these things to our kids, and they could see how mom and dad just battered up their Bibles, and just devoured God's word. So what a great example you're setting for your kids, Mark. That's a good challenge for me.
I do try to make sure that my kids see me in the word every morning. So my personal practice here after years of experimenting with a lot of different things, what's been working for me lately really over the last few years is Martin Luther’s method of Bible study. So Luther would take a passage of Scripture, and he wouldn't just read it, right? He would meditate on it and write out in prayer for things in response to the text. Number one, instruction. What's the passage commanding me to do? Number two, praise. What's the passage leading me to praise the Father for? Three, confession. Where have I fallen short of the passage’s instruction? Then finally, number four, just asking for the Lord's help in living out the passage. Then just kind of moving into an open-ended time of supplication?
So that's what quiet time looks like for me. That's what's working for me. You've heard from Mark what's working from him. But listen, time in the word can look a million different ways. Whatever works for you works. Whatever is making you more like Christ works. But this is crucial because it reminds us of why we care about redeeming our days, right? It reminds us that the gospel is our ultimate source of rest and ambition, and it helps us start our days dissenting from the kingdom of noise, a concept we're going to go deeper on in the next episode. We'll see you there.
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